India (00:05):
[inaudible] welcome to the divorce recovery podcast. My name is India Kern. My intention is to encourage and guide you through the valley of divorce. It doesn’t matter what stage you are in because we all need a little help navigating the road from married to divorced. I’ve been there and I know how it is. So sit tight, listen up and enjoy the podcast. The intention of today’s episode is to walk you through mediation, by demystifying the process. My guest, Jo-Ann Christine Little is going to walk us through the steps that one needs to take when facing divorce. Jo-Ann is a certified divorce financial analyst, a certified financial planner, FINRA arbitrator, and she’s trained in high conflict and collaborative divorce. She’s the owner of three different organizations, Divorce Help. Second Saturday and SD legal docs. Divorce Help is a divorce mediation firm. And second Saturday is a workshop dedicated to delivering divorce education to men and women and her SD legal docs is an organization that helps her clients with court, paperwork and other legal family law orders. So Jo-Ann is passionate about changing the way divorce happens in our society. I am too. And educating the public on the process of divorce to alleviate the fears that most people have when facing a life-changing event like divorce. So welcome to the show, Jo-Ann.
Jo-Ann (01:31):
Thank you so much, India. It’s a pleasure to be here with you.
India (01:34):
Well, I’m so happy to have you on the podcast because… Let me just start by saying I’ve been working with Jo-Ann for a while now at Second Saturday, and I have the utmost respect for Jo-Ann because I’ve sent her many clients and they are very pleased with the work that you do as a mediator. And, and even second Saturday, I’ve had many referrals sent to that as well. So let’s just jump right in into the meat and potatoes of mediation. So can you begin by walking down the path of the divorce process, say I’m facing divorce. What is the first step I need to take?
Jo-Ann (02:13):
So divorce in California, specifically, whether you litigate or mediate or do it yourself, you have to go through the same steps and the same process. For the most part, you’re going to have to wait a minimum of six months after you file the petition with the court. So you’re petitioning the court for divorce and then a case and a summons issued. And then the other party, who’s called the “respondent” is served. So that party is then given notice, we are looking to divorce in say, San Diego County through the downtown courthouse. So from that date, there’s a minimum six month wait. You certainly can have all of your appropriate paperwork, your agreements into the court prior to six months, but you must wait at least six months before you’re legally divorced. And by being legally divorced, that means you can remarry and your tax filing status changes.
Jo-Ann (03:24):
You are the status that you are on the last day of the year. So if you were to have your six-month date be December 31st, and we’ll make the assumption that all your paperwork is into the court, the judge has stamped it. Then you will be divorced for that year, even though it’s December 31st. And the same thing would hold through for January 1st. So everybody has to go through those steps. Also, you have to file disclosures form 142 assets and debts, and then also form 150, which is your income and expense declaration. And that needs to be exchanged with the other party. They are generally not filed with the court, at least the preliminary disclosures, but it’s something that you have to do and have to exchange. And then obviously you have to negotiate, um, your child custody. You parenting plan. If you have minor children, um, all of your assets, debts, liabilities, as well as child support or spousal support, put those into an agreement, um, with an accompanying document that is called a judgment packet.
Jo-Ann (04:36):
And then that has to be received by the court, um, stamped by the judge and then it’s returned to the parties. So regardless of how you decide to go about your divorce, those are the steps that need to be taken.
India (04:49):
That everyone has to take, whether they choose mediation or going to an attorney.
Jo-Ann (04:50):
Everybody has to take. Absolutely.
India (04:54):
Okay. So let’s touch on that for a second. I’m facing divorce. Do I call the mediator or do I call the
attorney?
Jo-Ann (05:02):
So my business Divorce Help is a mediation business within Divorce Help. Um, I have a model of mediation that’s based on the collaborative model. It’s a, I call it collaborative on steroids because first of all, I’m from the East coast. So we do everything on steroids, but it’s more streamlined, more cost efficient than a traditional collaborative model. And not just for those of you who may not be familiar with collaborative, collaborative is a process whereby the parties employ attorneys, therapists, financial planners to come in and work together as a group.
Jo-Ann (05:39):
The true collaborative model, as it was originally practiced, was in my opinion, sort of heavy, a couple of attorneys, a couple of financial analysts. So you’re running into some pretty high costs as well as just the whole coordination of the whole thing. So my model basically is designed to give you the expertise you need, at the appropriate times throughout the process. So basically I only practice mediation. I also work with clients who were maybe with attorneys or who were in pro person their own to help them understand the financial division of assets, debts, and income. So I would encourage everybody to seek mediation. One of the attorneys that I work with, she said, don’t get a wrecking ball if you need a hammer. Right? So true litigation can be very expensive. Um, it’s not unusual in San Diego County, especially if there’s some high conflict to run into six figures, easy peasy.
Jo-Ann (06:45):
I have people come to me. Who have been with attorneys for a year or two years and spent well into the six figures and their situations are not that complicated. So I would encourage everybody to seek mediation out, a couple of soundbites about the type of mediation. Um, I opened my mediation practice in 2013. And when I initially opened my practice, there were not nearly as many mediators as they are today. I commend that. I’m so happy that there are more mediators out there and mediation, I think it sort of sparked when Gwenyth Paltrow and her conscious uncoupling. Whatever the case may be. You know, Heidi ho that’s great. Let’s, let’s move with it. But I would really encourage people to ensure that when they are mediating, they are choosing a mediation process that employs somebody like myself as a certified divorce, financial analyst. I’m also a certified financial planner.
Jo-Ann (07:45):
So you’re kind of getting a double scoop there, um, as well as a neutral legal, um, so divorce is a legal process. You need to have legal information and financial information. Um, obviously we are human beings. So having emotional support in my book is very important as well. So when you are looking at mediation, um, choose a mediation firm that will give you an expert in the financial and an expert in the law that are gonna serve neutral, give you and your spouse, the information you need to make the best decisions for your family. Also, another really important piece, because I think we’re going to get this later in the interview, but one of the most litigated issues in divorce, is child custody. So here’s what happens, we decided we’re going to get a divorce. We’re relatively okay with each other.
Jo-Ann (08:41):
Maybe we don’t like each other too much, but we love our children. And we say, we got it figured it out. You know, right now you’re picking him up and dropping him off. And he’s coming over this day, et cetera, et cetera, holidays, birthdays activities. So then we don’t need a parenting plan. We got it all figured out, whatever. So then you get divorced and guess what happens? Life changes. You get a girlfriend, you get a boyfriend, whatever the kids start acting up. They liked daddy better because he’s bringing them toys or they like mommy better because she’s letting them stay up late or whatever the case may be. And you have nothing in writing. And so guess what starts to happen. So it’s very, very important that you have a good parenting plan in place. Now people often ask me if we decide to change this, if I’m going to take him in July, instead of August, we need to go back to court.
Jo-Ann (09:33):
Of course not. If you agree upon what to do, you’re fine, but this is your go-to plan. When the, you know, what hits the fan, then that’s what you do. And that’s what you agree upon. So in addition to having legal acumen and financial acumen, um, I work with a gentleman who I think he’s been on India’s podcasts before. He’s amazing. And he used to be the dude you would see at the courthouse, if you couldn’t figure out what to do with your kids, as far as the planning goes. So I send all of my clients with minor children to him to develop a plan. Now, naturally, if the kids are like 16 or 17, you’re probably not going to need to do that. If there are any special needs, you absolutely do need to do that because child support then can go beyond the legal age of 18.
India (10:20):
Yeah. That’s very sound advice and very wise. Um, so let’s take it back just a bit because I’ve often hear this question. Uh, is there an advantage to being the petitioner versus the respondent?
Jo-Ann (10:35):
So the petitioner is the one who starts the process, um, in mediation, hands down. No. Um, and basically that’s all I do. Um, again, just briefly going back to that process of divorce, we decide we’re going to get divorced. I’m the petitioner. I fill out the petition. I tell my attorney, I want the car, the house, the dog, all the furniture. I want spousal support, child support, et cetera, et cetera. And then you get served with the petition and then you have to answer, you have to respond to the petition. Then of course, you’re going to respond back and say, no, I want the dog, the house, whatever. Right. So in a litigated divorce, the petitioner is the one who throws their hat in first, if you will. In mediation, no, we have a certain way that we fill out all the paperwork.
Jo-Ann (11:20):
Everything is “TBD” to be decided upon it. So, um, there is a small consideration for the courthouse. We know that the downtown court seems to be a more efficient court as far as expediting your paperwork and getting things through. And sometimes East County can be a little bit more of a chore. So if one party lives in the downtown courthouse, uh, zip code, then we’ll have them be the petitioner. But other than that, no.
India (11:48):
Yeah. Okay, good. Cause that’s definitely a question that gets brought up. And also, I know we talked about attorney fees can be, you know, and the, it can cost a lot of money. So what should we expect with mediation? I know every case is different, but can you give us a range of like how different mediation cost versus attorney fees?
Jo-Ann (12:09):
So most attorneys in San Diego County are going to be between $300 and $700 an hour. Um, depending upon, as you say, the issues that come up, I would say in a relatively uncontested divorce, obviously, there’s some conflict. Maybe there’s a little bit of trust issues. I would say somewhere around $40,000. Um, if you start doing a lot of discovery and subpoenas to get financial information or tracing, you could be well into the six figures. And again, I’ve seen this with clients who come in. I had a case, they’d been with attorneys for over a year, came in with both their attorneys and myself as the neutral and in six hours, we blew through everything, you know, cause everybody’s in the room, makes a huge difference. Um, mediation, I can speak to my mediation model. I work on a flat-fee model. So I invite my clients to come in. I learn a little bit more about them. And then I go over with them, exactly what they get for the flat fee mediation model.
Jo-Ann (13:13):
I would say the majority of my clients finish within that model. If they don’t finish, then they can purchase time by the hour. Um, and the only reason they don’t finish as if they have super-duper complex assets, I mean like super-duper and not like just a couple of houses and right before retirement accounts, um, or there’s like really big conflict or they’re just not cooperating. So my model without children is $5,000 and with children is $5,650. I would say that that’s roughly, probably 10 to 20% of what it’s going to cost if you go.
India (13:51):
Oh, absolutely. Uh it’s, that’s so reasonable.
Jo-Ann (13:53):
And let me just add, because I think that there is sort of a, or was maybe, um, a false assumption that if you go to mediation, you don’t have very many assets, um, or that you don’t have conflict, um, or that you’re some type of rocket scientist who can make decisions for themselves.
Jo-Ann (14:13):
In my mediation practice, you are getting the highest level of expertise so that you are learning what you’re entitled to and you are empowering yourselves and your family to do the best thing possible in light of one of the most challenging situations you can go through in your life.
India (14:32):
Right? So this brings up something that I went through. So I tried mediation in the beginning of the divorce and I was very uneducated on what, I didn’t know, you could have a consulting attorney. So I go to this mediation, you know, session and, all of a sudden I think, okay, um, I’m going to be railroaded. I can’t do this. And I bail, but I didn’t know that I could have a consulting attorney. Now I want you to speak on that, but I also want you to tell us when is the right time to bring in that consulting attorney as well.
Jo-Ann (15:11):
So again, there are probably a variety of mediators, mediation models in San Diego County. So I’m going to speak to my model, Divorce Help. So, um, often there is a disproportionate range of power between the spouses, right? We get into relationships. I mean, we bond with people because we need each other. There’s something and somebody else that’s attracted to us, right? So especially in a marriage, we assume roles and sometimes one party will assume the financial role. And then the other party may be a small part of it or a bigger part of it. But the smaller part of it, the less they know, obviously the more fear false expectations appearing real. We do crazy bat shit things when we’re in fear. So often a couple will come in and they’ll tell me, or somebody will say, Oh, well he did it. Or she did it.
Jo-Ann (16:12):
And I don’t know that much about it. And through the disclosure process, which is really my area of expertise, my craftsman, if you will, my role is to help educate and assure that we get the documentation and the disclosure on the table. If you’re going to mediate, you better be prepared to disclose because I, as a mediator or any other mediator, really, we can’t force anybody to do anything. We can’t go to court and get you orders on things. We’re there to work as a collaborative team, right? Now if the party agrees to come into mediation and the other party is okay with having other professionals in the room, it could be a consulting attorney. It could be a financial planner, it could be another CDFA. And that person embodies the spirit of mediation. It can be extremely helpful. I actually met one of the attorneys I work within mediation, who was brought in by a client as a consulting attorney.
Jo-Ann (17:11):
She wanted to go through mediation. She didn’t want to go the court route. She wanted to keep everything private. She wanted to keep the discussions open amongst her and her husband, but she was unsure if she could really advocate for herself or could make the right decision. So she brought an attorney in who was just a wonderful attorney. We wrapped it up, finished in the time allotted. And then that attorney was so impressed by the process that now she comes in and works with me. So it’s a great way now whether other mediators would allow consulting attorneys and obviously, when we’re neutral and we get to the end of the road and you have your, your MSA – marriage settlement agreement, we always say, it’d be a good idea to just have somebody review it, not to blow it up, but just to assure you, well, this is what you know happened on child and spousal support and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and believe me in the state of California.
Jo-Ann (18:04):
Most things are pretty cut and dry. Your big areas of gray …spousal support, especially in a longterm marriage, um, assets before marriage that were commingled. Um, those are really, and then of course the child custody, not having a good plan in place. Those are the three big areas that people can spend a lot of money on.
India (18:24):
Okay. Okay, great. That’s awesome information. Um, I even learned more today. So I do want to ask you about Second Saturday and I want you to be able to tell the listeners more about that. So can you, can you do that for us?
Jo-Ann (18:36):
Second Saturday’s amazing, you know, I’ve always wanted to give back to the community, and finding the appropriate forum to do that and reaching the people who really need to be reached, you know, can be a challenge as a professional. So about four years ago, I came across Second Saturday.
Jo-Ann (18:55):
One of the attorneys I worked with brought me in as a speaker and Second Saturday has been around for about 20 years now. It’s actually nationwide. I think there’s about a hundred workshops throughout the nation, and we are devoted to giving men and women information about the process of divorce. And so it’s a three-hour workshop. Mine is www.secondsaturdaysandiego.org. It happens obviously on the second Saturday of every month and an attorney speaks for an hour about the process of divorce, what you have to do, things to watch out for mediation versus litigation, costs, et cetera, et cetera. I speak about the disclosure process. Um, we have, uh, a gentleman speak about the parenting and how to parent and parenting plans. India comes in and speaks about emotional support and how important that is to sort of keep your act together when you’re going through the divorce and how to morph and change.
Jo-Ann (19:54):
I mean, you know, people would maybe think, Oh, that’s sort of a luxury, but it’s a necessity because if you’re an emotional wreck when you’re trying to go through the divorce, you’re not going to make good decisions. So getting somebody on your side, who could say, okay, take a deep breath, calm down. This is not going to last forever. You know, use your professionals, whatever that is a huge help. So I always encourage people to see India, but she speaks at the workshop. We have a gentleman come in, who talks about the house, the mortgage. We have a financial planner, about what to do with your retirement after the divorce. And I am telling you hands down 100% of the time people walk out of there and they come up to me and they hug me and they say, I feel so much better.
Jo-Ann (20:38):
Thank you so much. Most of the people who come or contemplating, right. And that’s actually a good place to be. Cause they’re getting information and they’re understanding. And then obviously if they move forward with the divorce, they’ve seen me and my team speak. They know who we are. They know where we live. And you know, when you’re trying to do something, whatever it may be, you know, hike up a mountain, uh, learn how to ski, whatever, the person who leads you through that can make all the difference in the world as to your experience. And I am just really passionate about it. I went through my own divorce, we mediated. But during that time, just like, I want to buy a white Volvo. And all of a sudden you see all these white Volvos, you know, neighbors, friends, coworkers telling me all the horrific stories about what they were going through.
Jo-Ann (21:27):
And I’ve always been attracted to positions that needed a lot of help. Like when I’ve worked in corporate America, you know, take me into a territory that’s really suffering because I want to turn it around because how awesome is that is to take something and just make this, you know, huge change. And so I thought, wow, this certified divorce financial analyst thing, man, that, that looks like me and I can make a big difference. So I’m so passionate about what I do. I’m 61 years old now. I can’t even believe it. But, um, it’s like, you know, the decisions you make when you go through a divorce affect you forever.
India (22:08):
For the rest of your life. Absolutely, and that is why, you know, you do the business of divorce, right? That you covered the financial and you direct them. If they need more legal or, um, you know, the house situation. Well, I do the emotional because if you’re a wreck, you can’t make good decisions.
Jo-Ann (22:27):
You get into that fear mode and then you you’re irrational about things. And that’s why, you know, honestly, I don’t do my hair. I don’t do my nails. I don’t, you know, I mean, you want people who know what they’re doing. If you want to have the best results, you know?
India (22:43):
So it’s getting you mentally and emotionally prepared for like, that’s what I do. I get you mentally and emotionally prepared for the business of divorce. They can come to you and have a sound mind and make wise and informed decisions.
Jo-Ann (22:55):
And you know, we tend to look at life sometimes in a very linear manner. This is good. This is bad. I want it to stay this way. I don’t want it to change whatever. And I will say that you know, I don’t think any of us ever get married and think we’re going to get divorced. You know, it’s not something we want to do. We, I think as a society, we like to bond, you know, we like to be in family units and divorce, I mean, if you look at the divorce paperwork, you feel like a criminal, really somebody needs to change that. I don’t know who, but somebody needs to change that. You know, you’re straining orders and all this kind of stuff. But in any case, what I would say, um, I often liken myself to a, like a hiking guide. I am going to show you the best way up the mountain. I’m not going to carry you up there. If you start to go up on the wrong path, I’m going to pull you back.
Jo-Ann (23:46):
And if you haven’t taken enough water, I have water for you. If the weather turns, I’ll show you how to maneuver through it. And when you get to the top of that mountain, you are going to be a stronger person for it. So even though divorce is not the most pleasant thing to go through, you can, as India always says, and I’ve stolen this from her a couple of times going to steal it now. She says, you can get “bitter” or you can get “better”. And so even going through a divorce, you can get better. And when things are great, we can all be on our best behavior. But your true personality comes out in that time. So when you go through a divorce, remember just because maybe the other person you don’t have to go there. And it’s the tit for tat theory.
Jo-Ann (24:31):
If I treat you with respect and I’m fair, most likely you’re going to come back at me the same way. And if I don’t, then you won’t.
India (24:40):
Right. Exactly. Well, Jo-Ann, this has been a wonderful interview and I really thank you for being here. I want the listeners to know how to get in touch with you.
Jo-Ann (24:49):
So a couple of different ways, um, obviously in this age of the internet, um, I have my website, which is www.divorcehelpfamilylaw.com . And there’s just a bevy of information on that. And then for the workshop, which is a great way for those of you who may not be ready yet, but just want to get some more information, want to be kind of anonymous about it. It’s www.secondsaturdaysandiego.org and then you can also reach me at (619) 483-1576. And I provide a complimentary consultation for you and your spouse to come in, to learn about my practice.
Jo-Ann (25:38):
And then also, um, what I do, that’s been kind of popular lately is for those of you who have a lot of fear about the financial, if you bring me in your taxes, your list of your assets, your debts, your properties, things like that. I can kind of work with you to say, this is a likely outcome, which really helps people go, okay, well, all right, now I know what I’m facing. And so I call that my crystal ball consultation, and that is a paid consultation. Um, and you know, I spend time with people on the phone and answer questions. I want to, um, make sure that you’ve got the information you need honored to work with people who want to try to empower themselves to make the decisions. And, you know, people will say, well, you know, he or she is going to pay my attorney fees. No, you’re both paying them because once those fees are gone, that’s all that’s left for you guys. And I work with a variety of family law, as well as trust and estate attorneys who all embody the spirit of mediation professionals like India, uh, parenting coordinators, uh, paralegals. So we have a wonderful team and.
India (26:46):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. You know, I think the idea is we have so much fear when there’s so much uncertainty and you’re providing more of a plan. So you feel more confident and the anxiety goes down when you have a plan, a plan of action. So that’s what Jo-Ann does for you. So I encourage anyone that’s facing divorce wants to know more, please call Jo-Ann. And I want to end by saying thank you, listeners, for tuning in. I hope you found this episode super helpful. And remember, you can always get in touch with me at connect@indiakern.com. Again, thank you for listening and have a beautiful day.