There are many myths floating around about divorce mediation, so I sat down with Amanda Singer, a professional family mediator who answered questions we all want to know about divorce mediation. In an honest and candid conversation, she debunks many of the myths around mediation. Did you know that mediation is an option for almost everyone, even if you have already started out with a lawyer? Listen in and learn all the facts. It may save you time and boatloads of money.

For more information about my guest…

India Kern:
In today’s episode, I am talking to Amanda Singer, who is the co-owner and a professional family mediator of San Diego Family Mediation Center. So, today we plan to unpack some myths around mediation and divorce. Welcome Amanda. I’m so happy to have you here, because, this topic seems to be one of struggle, when people are facing divorce. So, I can’t wait for you to shed some light on all of this.

Amanda Singer:
Well thank you so much for having me today.

India Kern:
Of course. First, tell us a little bit about yourself. What made you choose family mediation?

Amanda Singer:
I first learned about mediation when I was in college, and I took a class on … It was like mediation, negotiation, and conflict resolution. And so, it was really the first time that I found that mediation was an option, and it was a career option. So, I took some time off before I went back to grad school. And when I was going back to law school, I knew I was interested in mediation. I had kinda done more research and was like, okay. I really want do mediation. And so, I only applied to and focused on schools that had mediation programs. So, I ended up doing my law degree at Chapman University, which is up in Orange County. And then I did my Master’s in dispute resolution at the same time at Pepperdine. Pepperdine’s got an amazing dispute resolution program. And so, kind of combining the two, I was able to really focus on mediation and learning conflict resolution skills. And it was like communication in conflicts, psychology of conflict, things like that. And, combine that with the legal education to be able to be a good mediator and go into that, straight coming out of law school.

India Kern:
Right, right. Well, for the listeners out there who are facing divorce, why might you recommend mediation? What are the benefits?

Amanda Singer:
There’s a lot of benefits with mediation. I think sometimes the thing is, is people don’t even know it’s an option. So, they may be faced with realizing that they’re gonna be going through a divorce, and they automatically think, “I’ve gotta hire an attorney.”

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
So, really, letting people know the benefits of mediation, and there is many of them. I think that one of the main ones that people really think about is, of course, the time and the cost. The cost of hiring an attorney can be astronomical.

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
With mediation, we do all flat fees. So, they’re gonna know up front, “This is what it’s gonna cost.” And have that piece of mind of being able to keep the assets that you acquired and not have to pay an attorney from them.

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
But, one of the bigger benefits I see, really, is the control that people get to maintain over the process. So, in mediation, it’s working with a third party, like myself, who remains neutral. And the parties really get to make their own decisions. So, I’m always there, I say, to facilitate the conversation. To, sometimes, make suggestions and come up with ideas, really being able to think outside the box. But, ultimately, it’s up to them to say, “Yes, I wanna do that.” Or, “No, I don’t.”

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
When people make their own decisions, as opposed to a judge, who doesn’t know them and doesn’t know their kids, saying you have to do something this way, they’re more likely to stick with it. And, you know, studies really have shown that, when you have the control over what you do, they’re likely to not go back on those agreements.

India Kern:
Right, right. And what about … is it also a privacy thing? Because you aren’t on the public record.

Amanda Singer:
Yeah.

India Kern:
Of course, your MSA is. But-

Amanda Singer:
Yes.

India Kern:
Tell me a little bit more about that.

Amanda Singer:
Yeah, and I don’t think many people know this. But, anything you file with the court in a divorce is a public record. So, if you wanted to go down to any of the family courts and pull anyone’s divorce file, you can. And that’s a little scary to think about, because-

India Kern:
No kidding.

Amanda Singer:
… sometimes there’s a lot of information in there. So, with mediation, everything remains confidential in the mediation sessions. And we file the least amount of paperwork possible. So, we’re not filing any of their court paper … or, sorry, any of their financial information. What we’re doing is, we’re exchanging that and then they’re signing saying they did it. But, we’re keeping it amongst us so that it’s not public. And even, there’s an opportunity to do what we call a confidential settlement agreement so that even their whole MSA or Marital Settlement Agreement-

India Kern:
Oh wow.

Amanda Singer:
… isn’t public. So, it really provides for a lot more privacy than you’d have otherwise.

India Kern:
Absolutely. So, when is mediation your best option? Can you share with me, like, what kind of … I mean, I know you have all different kinds of clients. But, tell me someone that you think would really best fit the mediation option.

Amanda Singer:
Yeah. I think, like I said at the beginning, a lot of times people don’t know it’s an option. But it really is for many people. Now, there are gonna be some situations where it’s not. And I think we can talk about that, too. But, I think really, mediation is an option for anybody who doesn’t wanna go to court, who may … they may not agree on anything, but they know that they wanna sit down and come up with their decisions themselves.

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
And, they don’t wanna spend the years that it can take in court.

India Kern:
Exactly, yes.

Amanda Singer:
And the stress that it takes on them and their family. I think, especially when there’s kids involved, mediation really allows the two parents to start from a point of working together. When you have kids with someone and you’re getting divorced, you have to stay co-parenting with them for the rest of your life.

India Kern:
Absolutely.

Amanda Singer:
It doesn’t matter what happens with you guys. You still have kids together. And so, being able to start from a point of agreeing as opposed to starting from a point of fighting, really allows for a better co-parenting relationship. And really, what’s important is the kids, and making sure that they’re happy and healthy. And mediation, I think, is very good when there’s kids involved, and even when there’s not, or when kids are grown, ’cause sometimes people don’t think about that, when they’ve got adult children. But they still feel it too. Even if we’re not talking about in mediation as a parenting plan or … ’cause they’re not minors, there are still a lot of issues that come along with adult children during divorce. So, you know, just being able to work with someone. And anyone who really says, “We don’t wanna go to court. We don’t wanna spend that money.” Sometimes they even may already have ideas of how they wanna do things. And, they don’t need an attorney or a judge telling them, “Oh, that’s not how you’re gonna do it.”

India Kern:
Right, right. No, that makes total sense. So, when is mediation not an option?

Amanda Singer:
So I think the biggest time mediation’s not an option is if there’s been any domestic violence. So, whether that’s physical, emotional, financial. And that doesn’t mean that none of my cases have that. But, if there’s a restraining order, especially, we won’t do mediation. Now, there are some people who will. But we’ve just found that usually when there’s a restraining order, there’s such a power imbalance-

India Kern:
Of course.

Amanda Singer:
… that it’s really hard to do mediation, because somebody is gonna kinda take over and take control.

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
Now, there are times where there may have been some in the past, and the parties are still agreeable, and there’s not a current restraining order. But the parties are agreeable to sitting down and doing it. And then, as the mediator, I really have to be aware and work with them to make sure that one person isn’t really taking over and using their power that they may have had during the marriage. And often, what we’ll do then is, we may meet individually. So I may spend some time where I’m with one spouse, and then with the other to be able to give the spouse who may not feel comfortable, and feel like they don’t have as much power, to still have those conversations.

India Kern:
Right. What about if you have trust issues about the finances? What do you do in that scenario?

Amanda Singer:
Again, because mediation is voluntary, we’re not doing discovery. We’re not doing subpoenas and trying to compel someone to produce documents. However, as part of the mediation process, we do require our clients to disclose everything. So no matter how you go through divorce in California, you have to disclose all of your financial information. That’s assets, debts, income and expense information. And so, we are telling them they have to do that. And they are providing us with that information. But, if somebody really wants to hide something, we’re not, again, doing discovery. Now, what I will say is, I always let people know the consequences of not-

India Kern:
That was my next question.

Amanda Singer:
Was it?

India Kern:
What’s the consequence?

Amanda Singer:
So, yeah, so there are consequences of not disclosing information. In California, specifically, if you don’t disclose an asset, for example, a bank account, and it’s later found out that you have it, not only can the court still have jurisdiction to divide it, but they can actually award it 100%-

India Kern:
Oh wow.

Amanda Singer:
… to the other person. So, letting people know that there are consequences. But, there does have to be some level of trust and disclosure. And I do … part of our mediation agreement, and I always let clients know, is if I ask for a document and you don’t produce it, that’s a reason for us to stop mediation.

India Kern:
Oh, okay. Yeah.

Amanda Singer:
So, if one person asks, “I wanna see the last year of statements.” And we only have the current statements, well, they’re allowed to. So, if somebody’s gonna say no, well then mediation isn’t the right option.

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
But, you know, most of the time, it’s letting people know, “Okay, they’re gonna get the same documents if you go to court. So why not just produce them voluntarily?”

India Kern:
Exactly. Okay. What are some of the biggest misconceptions or myths around mediation that you see people have when they come into your office?

Amanda Singer:
I think one of them is the, like, mediation isn’t for everyone. I mean, as you heard me say, I think most people it is for. So knowing, or thinking, “Oh, we have to agree on everything to come to mediation.” That’s what I hear a lot of times. And, no, I wouldn’t have a job if you agreed on everything. But, the idea is just that you need to be agreeable to sit down together and come to mediation. So, I certainly think that, that’s one of them. Another thing that we hear often is, “Can I mediate if I already have an attorney?” So, sometimes people might start in the court process. They hired an attorney, because that’s what they thought they had to do. Or, their spouse hired an attorney and it just put them on the defensive, so they did as well. But, they may have an attorney already. They may be part way through the process, but they may not be getting anywhere. They may realize they’re spending a lot of money and a lot of time, and it’s stressful. But, they may think that they can’t go back-

India Kern:
Go back.

Amanda Singer:
… to mediation. Yeah, and I think that, that’s-

India Kern:
But you can.

Amanda Singer:
You can. You totally can.

India Kern:
I didn’t know that. So that’s good to know.

Amanda Singer:
Yeah. Really, you can mediate at any time.

India Kern:
Any point.

Amanda Singer:
And, a lot of my clients have attorneys either that they had retained, or that they are consulting with, somebody to give them advice. Because, even though I’m a licensed attorney, when I work as a mediator, I’m not representing my clients.

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
So, I’m only … I’m acting as a neutral only. So, they can still have that attorney. Or, sometimes the clients are just done with attorneys and they get rid of them and they finish stuff in mediation.

Amanda Singer:
So, I guess it’s really knowing that there’s … It’s never too late to want to mediate.

India Kern:
Right, you can have your attorney look over something, but still go to mediation.

Amanda Singer:
Yeah, and I always advise that. I think it’s important to have that.

India Kern:
Yeah, see, I didn’t know that. That was something I didn’t know, either. So, I am learning something as well. Moving right along, what should the listeners know before finding a mediator?

Amanda Singer:
That can be a tough thing. Myself and my company, San Diego Family Mediation Center, we only do mediation. So, I have a business partner and both of us, though, only focus on mediation. But, what you’ll see is, that’s not really that common. So there are not many places in San Diego who only do mediation, and do it full time. So, I don’t do any litigation. She doesn’t do any litigation. We’re just focusing on working with clients as a neutral. Because of that, that’s where our strengths are. Right? We’re not looking at this as a mini litigation. We’re not looking at this as, “Oh, well, I only mediate sometimes.” No, this is what it is all the time. I think that, that’s important, because some people may not have the same training.

Amanda Singer:
Now, and I don’t know if you know this, but there’s not a certification or a designation you have to have to be a mediator. So you’ll find that most mediators, like myself, might be a licensed attorney. But they don’t have to be. They may have some mediation training, or a Master’s like I do. But, they don’t have to.

India Kern:
They don’t have to.

Amanda Singer:
And so, it’s really understanding, what are the … I say credentials, but it’s more than just the names … letters behind their name. It’s really about the experience that they have. So, I’m also a CDFA, which is a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst. And, so is my partner. And so, that gives us an extra layer of understanding the finances and being able to help clients through it.

India Kern:
Okay.

Amanda Singer:
So, I think when you’re interviewing mediators, it’s really understanding, do they do this full time? And what are their qualifications and experience to be doing mediation. And then, I think, of course, lastly, it’s always gonna be who do you jive with? Right?

India Kern:
Of course.

Amanda Singer:
Do you like the person? Do you feel comfortable with them? Just like with anything, a lot of it is about going with your gut. If you don’t feel comfortable with a mediator, they’re not the right person to work with for you. And that doesn’t say anything even, necessarily, about the mediator. But just always meeting with them. We always offer free consults. And I’d say most do. Take advantage of that. Be able to go and meet them. And I will say to people, too, I think it’s good to meet more than one. I’m not offended when somebody says, “Oh, well, you know, we have-”

India Kern:
Of course.

Amanda Singer:
… “another couple meetings set up.” I say, “That’s good. Just make sure you ask these questions.”

India Kern:
Right. Well that’s good information. So, what kind of preparation do you need to do, or is required before you go to mediation?

Amanda Singer:
The first time that clients come in, they don’t necessarily have to have done anything. I don’t want people to feel stressed out. We ask people to fill out a short intake for consults. And that’s only so I have a little bit of information about who the person is that’s coming, both the spouses that’s coming in to meet with me. Now, once we start mediation, like I talked about, there are the financial disclosures. So that’s gonna be a little different depending on who you’re working with. For us, we’ve put together our own kind of financial packet that mirrors the court forms, but it’s a little easier to understand. So, with that, it’s starting to gather the information on all the assets and debts, and then your income and then expense information. So, we also provide clients with a little more detailed budget, expense, you know, to look at, than, like the court might. It’s really starting to think about that information. It’s also starting to think about, “If you guys have had any conversations, are there things you agree to already? Maybe you know, ‘We’re gonna split time with the kids 50/50.’ And maybe you know what that schedule’s gonna look like already.” And so, knowing that, I always say to people, if you have agreements on stuff already, we’re not gonna rehash that.

India Kern:
Of course.

Amanda Singer:
You let me know what you’ve decided. I will then let you know, are you not thinking about everything. Are there questions to ask that you maybe haven’t done yet? But I think it’s just kind of being aware of having the information. It can be a lot information for people to gather. Statements and things like that. Luckily, at least, in mediation, sometimes couples will still work together on that. Right? So I always say to them, “I need all of the information. But I don’t need you to give me the exact same statement that you gave me.”

India Kern:
Right, right.

Amanda Singer:
But, it’s just being aware of where that information is and making sure you have access to it.

India Kern:
Okay. And what about, I know the cost ranges from couple to couple. But can you give me an idea of a range of where they’re gonna be taking this as far as cost wise? I know it’s less expensive than the legal-

Amanda Singer:
It is.

India Kern:
… attorney fees.

Amanda Singer:
Yes, well, and the thing is, you know, anytime you go to an attorney, they’re gonna take a retainer.

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
And I think the lowest retainers I usually see are like $5000.00, and that’s just to start. That’s not gonna take you through the whole process.

India Kern:
Exactly.

Amanda Singer:
But, for us, like I said, we do everything as a flat fee. Our flat fees include time in mediation, includes drafting agreements, court paperwork, everything from start to finish.

India Kern:
Okay.

Amanda Singer:
So, like you said, that’s gonna range. I’d say the majority of our clients kinda fall in the five to $7000.00 range, where we do have some that are less and some that are more. And there are some additional court filing fees and things like that. But, when we meet with people for a consult, I let them know, “These are all the costs up front.”

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
And so, they walk away knowing, “Okay, this whole divorce may cost us 8000 total.” And that’s with filing fees and with maybe dividing retirement account and things like that. And so, it’s helpful, because they know what that looks like.

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
And sometimes there’s additional cost if they need more mediation or something. But that’s also in their hands. So, if we say, “Okay, we’re gonna get everything done in four, two hour sessions,” they know that in order for us to be productive during our sessions, there’s some homework you have to do at home.

India Kern:
Right.

Amanda Singer:
And I say that to people often. The cost here will be less if you do more outside.

India Kern:
Exactly.

Amanda Singer:
Some people wanna do that, and other people say, “You know what, I don’t want to. I want to pay you to do that.” And both are okay.

India Kern:
Yeah, okay. That’s good to know. So, I think you’ve covered all the questions I had about mediation. So, is there anything you would like to add to your listeners? To the listeners out there?

Amanda Singer:
Yeah, I think that one of the big things with mediation, too, is that we look at it as really about a forward looking process. It’s not about looking at the past. So, I always say to my clients, “It doesn’t matter what happened while you guys were married, that got you to this point.” Now, there certainly may be emotions and things that come up during the mediation, and we do talk about that, because we understand that it’s an emotional time, and that’s there. But it’s really about, “How do we get you to move forward?” And that can be emotionally, that can be logistically. That can be financially. And, sometimes, that also means working with other professionals. I know we were talking about before, the work you do as well as other professionals, that, I can say, “Well, you might need additional financial help.” And so, it’s helping them figure that out, because, they do need to be able to move forward and there’s many people who come into my office and do not wanna be there.

India Kern:
Of course.

Amanda Singer:
They’re not the spouse who chose to have … get divorced. And they’re not wanting to be there. But I will say that, once they go through the process, and they get the kind of assistance that they need and do the work for themselves, many of them are happier than they were before. They just didn’t realize they could be happier.

India Kern:
Of course. I like that. I like forward thinking.

Amanda Singer:
Yeah.

India Kern:
Well, that wraps this podcast up for today. So, if you’d like more information on Amanda, go to SDFMC.com, or email amanda@sandiegofamilymediation.com. And know that all of this information will be on my website, on my podcast page. So, have a beautiful day, listeners. And thank you for listening.

Amanda Singer:
Thank you for having me